This is a slightly different post than normal. Below is an IM converstation that I had with my generic and unknown friend other. I thought it was an interesting converstation that shows some of my perspective on music sharing and also shows how much of an uptight and jerk friend I can be :/ .. oh well.
Also, I didn’t even try to fix misspellings and grammatical errors… Rereading what you quickly typed on IM makes you feel dumb.
<other>: hey
<other>: another question
TimmFin: lol
TimmFin: whats up?
<other>: I wanted to check the umm….legalness of a certain downloading program
<other>: :-D
<other>: it’s called mytunes redux
<other>: people ahve said to me that it’s not illegal
TimmFin: it have a site?
<other>: umm..hold on lemme check
TimmFin: (legality btw :))
<other>: lol
<other>: minimalverbosity.com
<other>: no www
<other>: http://minimalverbosity.com/
<other>: u still there?
TimmFin: yers
TimmFin: yes
<other>: k
TimmFin: so the thing that this application allows is the sharing of music files on the hard drives of other on your network (in your case this is other students)..
<other>: yes
TimmFin: apple’s itunes kind of already lets you do this, but it don’t let you download the file from the other student. it just lets you play it remotely and not copy it onto your machine
<other>: okay..
TimmFin: but this app will allow you to grabother student’s music files, so the application itself it not illegal…. but
<other>: but?
TimmFin: no matter how you get a hold of a copyrighted song, if you didn’t pay for it and you keep a copy for your own use (not just a one time test or something) you are technically stealing the song
<other>: but can they catch me?
<other>: like…the government?…orwhoever?
TimmFin: well… almost anything is possible on the internet so the answer to “can” is yes
<other>: I got scared cause my internet started acting all screwy today….
TimmFin: I’d rather prefer not to discuss the whole “can I get away with it” thing, since you probably won’t like what I have to say
<other>: well…
<other>: am I going to get in trouble?
<other>: is this whymy internet is being weird?
TimmFin: I’m sure the two things are totally unrelated
<other>: really?
TimmFin: but as for “am I going to get in trouble” .. again, I’d rather prefer not to discuss the whole “can I get away with it” thing, since you probably won’t like what I have to say
TimmFin: you are having network problems.. if someone was hacking your system to see what files you had you probably wouldn’t even notice
<other>: what do you ahve to say?
TimmFin: sure you want to ask?
… small tangent …
<other>: but..honestly….can you answer me something…objectively
TimmFin: I don’t want to encourage you to download copyrighted material, seeing if someone is hacking your machine is another story..
TimmFin: whats the question?
<other>: should I take the software off my compture?
<other>: computer
TimmFin: well you are not asking an objective question (that question is totally based on personal opinion)..
<other>: no…
<other>: because if they’re going to come nad slap handcuffs on me tomorrow..then I want it off
<other>: lol
TimmFin: … but if you can get away with it and forget about the possible legal consequences its ok..
<other>: huh?
<other>: I’m not asking if it’s right
<other>: I’m asking if I’m going to get in trouble
TimmFin: yes you are
<other>: yes I am what?
<other>: am I going to get in trouble? could I possiblyget in trouble?
TimmFin: well anyone who ever does anything illegal could possibly get it trouble
TimmFin: as in if I went 1 mph over the speedlimit I could get a ticket
<other>: Tim
<other>: ….
TimmFin: then ask a more specific question :)
<other>: am I goign to get in trouble?
TimmFin: now you are asking me to predict the future
<other>: Tim….
TimmFin: .. lol
<other>: please
<other>: you know what I”m asking
TimmFin: .. yes I know, you want me to make you feel safe and tell you that its ok for you to steal music
<other>: yes
TimmFin: (I warned you :))
<other>: ut oh..what’s that supposed to mean?
TimmFin: I warned you that I might say something you don’t like and or want to hear
<other>: k
<other>: go ahead
TimmFin: no I think I’ve already made my point, I’m in no lecture mood today
<other>: okay..well..that’s good..but you stilldidn’t answer my question..you just reworded it
TimmFin: ok, well I’ll honestly refuse to answer the question then
<other>: :-(
<other>: fine
TimmFin: my reasoning to answer the question are motivated by ethics and yours by consequence.. I don’t want to force my opinion on you, so I’m just not going to answer.
<other>: :-(
<other>: that’s all I have to say about that:-(
10 Comments
Well… where to begin…
First, that person should know that any time he does anything illegal there is a chance that he might get caught, just as there is a chance you might get caught for stealing any old thing, whether it be a car or a stick of gum. The key word is “might”, as in if the authoriites find out you get in trouble, if they don’t you don’t. Can teh authoriites find out??? Yes they can. How likely are they to find out??? Not very, considering all of the traffic is over an internal network. Nevertheless, there is a chance. That’s what you tell that person.
“Am I going to get in trouble?”… who asks that???
Second, that is not uptight or anything IMHO. While you might have been a bit more descriptive in explaining the risks, your refusal to answer the question is perfectly fair. I mean, what are you supposed to say??? No??? That’s just dumb. Clearly the know there’s a risk or they wouldn;t be asking. You did the right thing.
Third, you are clearly at a higher level of self actualization than this person. They are still at the level where they only deem something wrong based on it’s consequences while you have developed (at least implicitly) a moral theory that rests on a priori grounds rather than on empirically derived grounds. As a result, it’s only natural that you would tend to shun the more simplistic approach of your firend. I go through this a lot with the people around me, so I know what it’s like. It’s the price we pay for thinking for ourselves.
Fourth, I didn’t know you hated downloading of music so much, though I’m not surprised. I don’t want to start a moral discussion, though, so I’ll just drop it there. Anyway, as always, you are THA MAN!!!
Well Chris, eventhough I do agree with you on several points I think you are attacking this person too much. Even though I did not indicate who this friend was, they are still a friend. Even though I really tried to avoid forcing my opinion, is this still an ok way to talk to a friend? I’m not saying to change my mind or lie, but maybe to not get as “worked up” (eventhough I really wasn’t that worked up for this discussion).
I’m a bit worried with the way you present your third point. I perfectly understand the point you are making, but it is honestly a bit arrogent. I think that you would agree with me that holding different moral/ethical standards grants us no more or less repect than anyone else, so I don’t really think you are intentionally being arrogent, but it kinda comes off that way (I and we vs them.. yadda yadda yada).
And for the last thing, I really don’t want to give the impression that I hate anyone. I may not think that downloading copyrighted material is right, but I certainly won’t hold any serious ill feelings to anyone that does it.
Oh, and for that last phrase, I’m certainly not THA MAN. I’m just a regular ol’ guy :).
Yeah, maybe you’re right. It weas just supposed to echo some phychologists perspective. He developed a pyrmaid of self actualization and incorporated into that were stages of moral development. I don’t even know if I believe it… so I should have made that clear.
Also, you’re right, it was bit harsh. I’m not trying to bash your friend or anything (do they see this blog :/), but I will be the first to admit that I tend to deal with people in a slightly more brutal manner. I truely have less patience for people than for any other thing in the world. Maybe I shoudl work on that, but wow is it difficult.
To end, hate was bad diction. Something less strong… like strongly opposed to downloading music… might have been better.
And don’t be modest… there isn’t a single person out there that doesn’t hold you in fond regards. I’ll even bet you $10 :).
Chris….first of all, yes I do see this blog. Secondly, I don’t appreciate the criticism. I try not to be uptight. Downloading music is something fun..yes..illegal, but fun. And if I can get away with it, I’m going to do it (along with the rest of the people my age in this country). The only reason I was even asking any of these questions was because I started having internet problems (totally unrelated-which Tim explained to me) the day after I started using this program. I’m sure everyone will be glad to know i did not remove the program nor did I get thrown in the slammer:-) Try not to be so uptight….
Alright, first off, I just want to say that the criticism was not directed at you, but rather at informing Tim that I was in strong agreement with the way he handled the situation. Rather than simply stating that, I explained in order to clarify my own position.
Second, the criticism is not meant to be negative, but positive (though I realize it may not come across that way). I feel that I have a right to express my sentiments about the actions of others, and to do it publicly if I choose. If you truly feel that your actions are alright, then my criticism should mean absolutely nothing to you.
Third, that stuff I said about self-actualization is actually just psychological babble from, I believe, Maslow. I am not necessarily in total agreement with that, but I will not deny that I hold Tim’s moral perspective to be of greater virtue than your own, ie a moral theory developed on principals is, in my opinion, of greater esteem than one developed on consequences… but that is just my opinion.
Fourth, I said what I said because of course you can get in trouble. With the RIAA and MPAA head-hunting like they have been, the risk is greater now than it ever has been in the past. There is no way Tim can say that you won’t get in trouble, because he is also aware that there is a risk. What you really want to know is how likely you are to get in trouble. The answer to that is that is pretty unlikely, but like any other unlikely event, most people will refuse to believe that it can happen to them until it does. So yes, you can get in trouble, but you may not get in trouble.
Last, I do not disapprove of you downloading music. I download music myself (or at least I did for a while), so I am not as uptight as I came off. My primary interest was bolstering Tim, though as someone who respects him to the utmost I am completely aware that he doesn’t need any reassurance from me.
I understand the possible consequences of my actions…I was asking for his opinion as a friend. Since he is such a good friend, I would have thought that he could put his own moral/ethical beliefs aside and answer what I was asking objectively. I know that I try not to impose my own moral/ethical values on others. I knew how he felt about downloading music before he even stated it…
About your criticism….clearly it means very little since I’m not changing anything.
I think that you need to think about how you are responding and reacting to people. It was only when Tim pointed out that I was a friend that you seem to get off of your…what did you call it….psychological babble and see that I am a person. People make mistakes. We do things against the rules and hope we won’t get caught. I don’t break all the rules….in fact I don’t break most of the rules. I have good morals. I am confident in the decisions I make and feel that I use good judgement in regards to my actions. I think that if you understood me even a little bit, you would understand that my IM with Tim has nothing to do with psychology or any of those other philosopher’s you’ve studied at Washington College. But rather, it was me, a person, asking for advice from a good friend. Asking him to put aside what he may deem as wrong and give me some advice. Tim knows alot more about computers and the internet than I do…therefore, I figured he would be able to give it to me honestly. But he couldn’t even do that. He couldn’t even say to me what you said…that it is not likely that I would get caught.
So..I guess thank you for the truth, for what Tim wouldn’t say, and I don’t think you’re as uptight as you came across in your first post. In fact, I know you’re not.
Well in my slight defense I did at least tell you that I was near 100% that your internet problems and the music downloading program where totally unrelated issues. I did not say that your chances of getting caught were very slim because even if you haven’t exactly heard those words, you know or at least already have a good idea that that was the case. I understand that you would like reasurance, but I’ll refer back to the converstation:
TimmFin: .. yes I know, you want me to make you feel safe and tell you that its ok for you to steal music
: yes
I know that I cannot take that statement exactly for granted. I think its more the case that you were half asking for my opinion/approval, “its ok to steal music” and the other half was factually asking if many were getting caught for doing this sort of thing. I don’t have much probablem answering the second question (the factual one), but I didn’t respond to the approval question because I don’t feel quite right reassuring you that the situation is fine. Even though I know you already know my opinion on the matter, I didn’t want to just say “you’ll be fine and not get caught” since.. well its just to close to supporting and/or encouraging downloading. Even if your intentions were totally separate from psychology or philosophy, my thoughts on the subject are inheirently tied to them and its not quite possible for me to separate from them.
I’m sorry that moral issues are so important to me, and can at times detract from what the best thing for a “good friend” to say. I agree with you that my approach may not be the best thing for a friend to do, but thats how I am (though you pretty much knew this of me ahead of time anyways).
One thing though, I don’t think you can agrue using the “if you understood me even a little bit” point, since its likely that you cannot understand Chris just as much as Chris cannot understand you.
I guess thats enough for now..
It occurred to me that in all of this I never did apologize. Well, I am sorry for my initial reaction. It was an emotional one and I didn;t consider what I was saying really. My feelings were just flowing out freely, which I personally feel is not wrong, but it can come across as inappropriate or downright nasty.
Anyway, I would like to make peace and move on.
Chris, you’re forgiven. Thanks. I really wasn’t that worked up about it…just thought I’d share how I felt and defend myself a little:-)
Tim, I wasn’t trying to make you feel bad…sorry if I did.
Lol, that IM conversation still makes me chuckle.