Edit: I’m not perfect happy with myself for writing this post, but I feel obligated to keep it. I’m not changing my opinion, but I really should have been less direct and less judgemental. I like to think that I’m normally pretty good about trying to express my opinions as just that — options. But it seems like I didn’t do that so well this time. I apologize if I offended anyone. This is obviously a touchy topic for me, though it really is not something I worry about that often. As my mom commented, why the heck do I worry about these things so much? I don’t have a good answer to that, but its something I should certainly think about.
“Our ability to be intelligently unintelligent never ceases to astound me” — Chris Hayden
Well said — there are no disagreements here. One tidbit I’d like to add is that Evolution and Creationism are not contradictory ideas (in my perspective). They only become contradictory when one takes the language from Genesis literally (and pushing fundamentalist I would add).
Let me break out my bible (whew, its been a while!). The rest of you can read at the Bible Gateway if you so desire.
So there are three main issues here (or three obvious issues that I think are the most prevalent). The length of God’s creation work, the creation of Adam from “the dust of the ground” (Genesis 1:7), and the creation of Eve from Adam’s rib.
The basic, basic evolutionary story is just that life started out as simple singular celled organisms in the ocean that eventually (aka billions of years) evolved in to all the biological diversity we have today. If you take the six days of creation as metaphoric/artistic symbolism Genesis’s language does agree that God made life sequentially and gradually both beliefs can coexist peacefully. I also remember reading somewhere that the the original Hebrew word used there for “day” did not necessarily connote the literal “day” that we think of (maybe someone with more motivation and better memory can provide more info).
Now some of you may say that I totally glazed over the “metaphoric/artistic” point, and yes I did. The reason being that it is quite involved to eloguently argue why the Bible should be taken from a more artistic, more storylike perspective (aka above my ability) . So instead I’ll be blunt. Look, life isn’t simple. As modern humans we ask lots of questions and want answers. Things are easier when the answers are given to us verbatim, and many people want to make the Bible an answer book since that would be nice and convenient (and make life simple, careless, and absolutely boring). If the Bible was an answer book then it wouldn’t be so freaking complex and it would actually give answers (most of the time it only makes me ask more questions).
The Bible is not about the words (how many translations and versions are there?). It is about the experience. The experience of engaging in a search for knowledge and truth by following a compelling/artistic/historical/fictional/gruesome/intimate story.
Since its late and I’m not motivated to write a long (well, longer I guess) theological rant, I won’t say too much more. I would like to say that not a single person in the world takes the entire Bible literally. If you disagree with that statement, find me someone who follows all the of rules from Leviticus to the letter or someone that cuts off their hands and feet. The question is not whether you take the whole book/story literally or not, but rather if you tend to the more fundamental or more liberal part of the spectrum.
Whew, the irony here is that this is coming from half-hearted Christian who has gone to church a handful of times in the past several months. Maybe I would be more motivated if I saw Christianity being more of a good thing in the world than another excuse for ignorance and bigotry.
Why don’t all the Americans who are complaining about Fundamental Muslims see the proverbial plank in their own eye — Fundamental Christianity?
Its alright if they don’t call me a Christian, I don’t really want to be associated with them anyway…
14 Comments
Well, I did enjoy the post, but if it is a response to my post then I’m not quite sure you understood what I was saying. I was not arguing that the two are contradictory; rather, I was arguing that the idea of intelligent influence that some people want to insert into evolution (or worse, take precedence over evolution) is in fact unscientific. The difference is that creationism/intelligent design can make room for evolution, but science, if it wishes to uphold the standards and integrity that have made it the most successful human pursuit in history, cannot make room for an unscientific idea like creationism/intelligent design.
Tim, it may have been me that told you about the Hebrew word for day not necessarily meaning a 24 hour period of time. Supposedly the word from the original writing of Genesis directly translates loosely as ‘a period of time’, and the context was used to help determine the exact period of time.
Well Chris, technically I guess I shouldn’t have said response. This rant was not aimed at you at all, but moreorless my thoughts that stemmed from your topic. I was “adding” to the dicourse surrounding your topic and thats why I linked.
And James, thanks. I think I remember when you said that now.
What to say…What to say…. God you worry about this stuff way too much! Who cares what other people think and believe. The Bible is a book with words, words that some people take literally and some people don’t. Words that can define your entire spiritual life or words that you read and shrug over. You determine your own faith, your own spirituality, and therefore, you can interpret the Bible or believe what you choose.
My first huge problem with your post is that you preach and criticize those who take the Bible literally when you yourself take EVERYTHING said literally. You’re a hypocrite.
My second huge problem with your post is that you preach throughout the whole post regarding the Bible and its meanings. The Bible is what someone makes of it. It is no more or less than that. What it means to you may mean something totally different to someone else. Therefore, it is arrogant to state what it means as if it would be fact.
My third huge problem with your post is that you worry at the end about other people considering you a Christian. Religion and therfore, Christianity, is also what someone makes of it. You may think yourself a good Christian, however, someone else may think you a bad one. My point is who cares? You are the only person who has the to judge youself and classify youself. You’re stereotyping yourself as well as, Christians. I have a huge problem with this because of those reasons as well as some personal ones. I am Catholic. While I still believe in some of the fundamental things that Catholics believe in, I do not and never will agree wholeheartedly with the entire Bible, Pope, or Catholic community. I classify myself as Catholic and no one else ever will get away with telling me that I am a good or bad Catholic. I am what I believe. People need to stop worrying so much about how to classify religion, beliefs, and people and start worrying about more important things. To name a few….the disaster left from hurricane Katrina or the war in Iraq.
Look at yourself, what you beleive, and all that you have. Instead of judging or worrying about others, worry about yourself. Worrying about judging yourself and making yourself into the person YOU want to be. If that means believing in the Bible literally, then go for it! If it means denouncing the Bible and God, then such is your choice. You are the only one who has to live with yourself, the only one who has to judge yourself, and the only one who can make a difference in who you are.
Well, again I am confused. Be the best you can be and forget about the rest. You know yourself and what you need. You have always walked to your own beat. Keep your head up.
Karen, I agree with some of your criticisms, but not all of them. (I believe that making spirituality/religion solely an individual affair is directly contradictory its/their purpose.)
Good point Mom. I’m not 100% sure why I get riled up about things like this every once and a while, but it happens (and I’m rarely happy that it happens).
I’ve edited the post to try to lessen the blunder I’ve made. Sorry! :/
Truthfully Tim, I didn’t get anything from our entry quite as strong in nature as Karen did. In any case, it’s your blog, so unless you truly beieve that you have made some kind of error in posting then I wouldn’t change a thing. After all, the purpose of your blog is to allow you to express your opinions. If people don’t like them, then they don’t have to read them. It’s not as if by posting your views that you are forcing them on others.
Also, Karen, don’t take this as an attack on your post. It’s really just me supporting Tim’s choice to express his opinions. :-)
I don’t have an issue with the content of what I was saying, but rather the manner in which I said it. Those who have argued with me before know that I’m the kind of person who is picky about the way people express their opinions. I think that it is very important to express personal beliefs as statements predicated by “in my opinion” (or similar) since expressing a belief as a factual statement can be easily offensive to others. And actually it wasn’t Karen’s post that made me feel bad, but rather the phone conversation I had with her afterwards.
But thanks for supporting my freedom of expression, but please don’t allow me to be the kind of person that is full of his/her own ideas and is incapable of seeing from another’s perspective. I am over-reacting here a bit, but I don’t want to become the same kind of person as the people I am complaining about. :)
So does that mean, since I’m christian, you don’t want to be associated with me? :\
No, that certainly was not a general statement but more of an exaggerated attention grabber. I’m not complaining about all Christians, just those with a highly narrow minded, holier than thou, “if you don’t believe what I do you are eternally damned”, and fundamentalist mindset. (In other words not you, and no one that I know personally)
I don’t really want to rehash this too much since I’m not too happy for being that judgemental toward that group of people (or any group of people for that matter), so that’s about it.
Dear Tim,
I am not looking to “rehash” this incident, but I feel compelled to at least put my two cents in (maybe it’s because we haven’t all had the chance to sit around and talk until 4am about nothing and I’m feeling a little bit of withdraw, but who knows ;)).
Anyway, the reason I love your blog is because I can come here and get a glimpse of you through your photos, your art, and your writing…and damnit I like you, not inspite of, but because of all our diffences in opinion.
I don’t ever want to visit your site and see that you’ve edited yourself for the sake of others. I agree with your mom, you’ve always been strong and true to yourself, continue on the same! Be proud of who you are and what you have to say.
Differences are what make the world oh so very interesting and worth pondering…you’ll never be able to make everyone happy,and you can’t go bending each time someone objects to a difference they find between themselves and yourself. If you do, you’ll end up losing your identity in the midst of it all.
ps. like madonna always says “express yourself” ;p
T.F.,
I think it is very important for Christians to stand up for what they believe. Espeically smart and sane ones like you. You should be direct. You should get angry. I am. Please don’t ever stiffle your feelings or opinions based on how other people might react or have reacted. I am just so happy that you feel comfortable enough to share your beliefs on an open space where anyone can come and see what you believe in.
And I think that Karen might have interpreted your rant as a little more factual than opinion-based. It’s all relative. And she, as well, was completely entitled to express herself. You just have to be ready to deal with other people’s differing opinions with an open mind but not a weak one. Take them in, but do not change how you feel so that other people will feel comfortable. Religion in general is an uncomfortable thing, especially Christianity. (Not calling you a heathen Karen, just actually glad that you said how you felt.) You guys were basically feeling the same emotion about different things, and that is great. We are supposed to be angry, angry with the injustices and general crap in the world. And we are supposed to speak against it. And a blog is a great place to do just that.
And I’m not saying that you were wrong or weak to “edit” your entry. I just want to make sure you did it because you felt you needed to for you, not because you didn’t want to upset someone. Cuz basing what you do and say on other people is a stress that no one needs, believe me.
Now you have inspired me to have a rant of my own on my blog thingy. But I am at work (oops) so I am going to wait until my lunch break to bust it out.
By the way, Madonna also said, “Say what you mean, mean what you say.” :)(She’s pretty wise.)
Hey Tim, greetings from back down in MD:) I don’t usually post, but I wanted to see if I could add to the plethora of words already placed here, if not at least add my own little bit of encouragement (for whatever it’s worth…).
For a lot of people, religion is this concrete thing that supports their world. If it is implacable, then every decision can b based on it, and any challenge to it is almost invariably met with hostility.
There are huge numbers of people who don’t even know what they believe, or understand the ramifications of supporting certain religions. My wife used to be catholic and left it b/c of a number of doctrines that screamed out to her as being unjust. She still believes some things I don’t, but hey, life is not really about agreeing. The most we can usually hope for is to get along and understand each other. That usually means taking the time to listen.
I have a friend who misunderstood something I said two months ago, and proceeded to eviscerate me with conservative christian doctrine. You should ask Pete about it, I vented to him quite a bit. Long story short, we are finally talking again, but only because I did not want to lose a friend of 15 years. He said some really awful s–t to me, but I listened and did not respond in kind, but with love. My point and hope here is this: your blog is your place to be you and speak your mind, and I think you should continue to do so with guilt about feeling a certain way about something. We live, learn, hopefully we love along the way as well.
I know we never talked much, but your presence is missed down here. Take care Tim, and keep up the good stuff.
- Greg